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Author Topic: Freezer in Samsung RSG257AARS side-by-side wont freeze  (Read 3607 times)

Offline danube

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Re: Freezer in Samsung RSG257AARS side-by-side wont freeze
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2016, 08:10:49 PM »

Baldwin:  yes, I think you're right.  I approaching a limit on the man hours I can put into this thing.  I'm thinking now of the final scene in the movie THX 1138, where "Tex" runs out the cost clock to get to freedom.   This morning I plugged the 3-way valve back in and cycled the power.  The valve is driven to one side, and then a good way back in the opposite direction.  It's definitely being turned by the main board.  But I sat near the fridge all day and I haven't heard it turn since.  now the fridge is reverting to its old behavior.  The fridge is cooling, but the freezer is slowly warming up into the 20's while the display panel insists it's -14F.  It's just plain wrong, even if it is taking an average.

I'll take a risk and buy a new main board monday morning and hope for the best when I replace it.   If that fails, I'll have to junk the fridge, because I just can't find the problem.

Last question:  Do three way valves wear out mechanically?   I would be surprised, but is it possible the internal stop wore off, so it isn't quite "zeroed" when it's driven to the end stop?  Or, do they plug up?

Keep it simple:  Yes, EMF discharge spikes are a very real possibility.  I like your Idea, and I will check the schematic to see what's there already if anything.  Can you suggest a device part number?
I note that the ice cream was getting soft in the fridge a few months ago, but the problems got worse after an extended black out during which I ran the fridge from a generator - i.e. dirty power.  It still worked after that but deteriorated further in the weeks since.   The fact that the displayed temperature slowly drifts down while the actual temperature slowly drifts up is an indication to me of some damage to the CPU on the main board.  The inputs from the sensors go straight to the CPU pins.  There's a pull-up resistor, and a capacitor to ground, so not much possibility of the CPU getting the readings wrong, UNLESS there is some damage, say in the way of leakage current into the pins.

By the way, I won't ever jump start a car from my running car for the very reasons you give by example.  It's a TERRIBLE Idea to jump start another car.  When you start your car, the ignition switch DISCONNECTS the accessory wiring and the only thing attached to the battery is the starter and the engine control unit.  But when you try to jump start *another* car with your car running, you've got everything connected while you dump some 100 amps into an inductive load (the starter motor in the other car).  When that shuts off, you get nasty voltage spikes on *your* electrical system.   I've blown out two alternators I can recall after having jumped someone.  In both cases, the diodes didn't fail immediately, but a week or two afterwards.    Best way to help someone out is to charge their battery from your running car, then *disconnect* the jumper cables and let them start their car with their own battery.  If it won't start that way, sorry, you're calling AAA.

  Thanks again for the help and advice.   I hope to have a working fridge in a week or so, after I buy a main board.

  Dan



Offline KeepItSimpleStupid

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Re: Freezer in Samsung RSG257AARS side-by-side wont freeze
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2016, 01:55:26 PM »
If it is ESD or a spike, the fault can be non-permanent.  This http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Semiconductors/1N6373-E3-54/?  would be suitable for the 5V supply with the band of the diode to +5.

It looks like +5 and GND are hard to find?

Offline curjones

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Re: Freezer in Samsung RSG257AARS side-by-side wont freeze
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2016, 01:20:42 AM »
The -14 temp is what the computer sets the unit to freeze at until Ice bin is full, and older models did not show that temp set point
only user set point..  I am not fully sure about this , but they may have changed it to now read the set point on interface.

Not checking Frost pattern is like trying to guess whats wrong and keep on guessing a long time.

The freezer evap should have a full frost pattern.  Remove the covers and expose the Evaporator.

One problem that has happened on these dual systems  is the Refrigerator evap leaks (WHIRLPOOL) and the refrigerator evap cools that side to 38 degrees just fine, but the freezer evap is starved, only 1/3 full at top..  That is what I saw on a Whirlpool.

The start up Reset process your doing is this.  The unit sends all refrigerant to freezer side first, until temp is reached in freezer.
once that is achieved the three way now allows the frige to cool.  There is now refrigerant trapped in the  frige evap, and  not enough left to fill the coils on freezer.

The thermistor sits on top of the coils of freezer evap and that is getting Iced up and for a short time and can be reading -14 degrees
but the whole evaporator is not full.

Inspecting the evap frost pattern on freezer is a must see.  If its full, passes the test.  Then the control board is messed up and not receiving the message of sensors all the way through its brain circuit, or there is a blockage to the sender to turn off or on.

the temp record memory sector is telling the master brain a lie,  in its data file.  We are cold we are cold , and that is a Lie
YOU ARE THE DADDY!!!
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 01:29:47 AM by curjones »
About the icons: The beer is tip link, if a tech saves ya some money buy em a 6 pack(diet coke in my case) . The small green square=personal message.

Offline danube

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Re: Freezer in Samsung RSG257AARS side-by-side wont freeze
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2016, 06:13:12 PM »
  Uh oh.   Please see the attached photo.  Is this what you (curjones) mean by a partial frost pattern?

So, I may have a leak after all.   But where is it coming from?

But as far as the order of cooling goes, I am almost certain that the process in the Samsung is the opposite of what you describe.  It cools the Fridge (or BOTH) first, and only then does it switch to the freezer side.  I have only rarely seen it (by watching the status monitor) set the 3-way to freezer very rarely and not when I first plug it in.  I happened to be monitoring it this afternoon when I saw the status LED change and heard the motor move and then saw the temperature on the freezer side go UP not down.  That was puzzling.  I then took the cover off and snapped the photo.  There is only frost on the top end of the evap coils.  The bottom is barely frozen.

Dan




Offline curjones

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Re: Freezer in Samsung RSG257AARS side-by-side wont freeze
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2016, 01:08:42 AM »
That is a starved, evap.  Its important to give it time to fill up if the system just clicked to it.  I am not looking at a tech sheet, or fast track, but you should be able to put the unit on freezer side only.  and see if evap then fills.

most units I have worked on set the Priority to freezer section first, may not be a ALWAYS

The system appears starved due to a leak.  I related to you the Whirlpool Known problem they had.  Their Known problem was the refrigerator Evap had a leak. They had a service bulletin out on it.

You can have a leak any where as far as that goes.  May be detectable with Dye test, but you have to  put fittings on to get access to sealed system.

visual inspection of lines may show discoloration on the evaporators,  you may want to do a visual on the refrigerator evap.  Will often look black like tarnish.

This UNIT may also BE under a MANUFACTURE WARRANTY for sealed system.  How old is your unit?

don't Tap or go into the sealed system until you find out about this warranty or you'll void it.

My Whirlpool customer got it fixed for free.

There are what we call small, very small factory leaks that you really cant find.  They may take three years to depleted the system.

You'll need to know how to add refrigerant  and do sealed system charge if you have no warranty
About the icons: The beer is tip link, if a tech saves ya some money buy em a 6 pack(diet coke in my case) . The small green square=personal message.

Offline curjones

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About the icons: The beer is tip link, if a tech saves ya some money buy em a 6 pack(diet coke in my case) . The small green square=personal message.

Offline danube

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Re: Freezer in Samsung RSG257AARS side-by-side wont freeze
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2016, 09:17:06 AM »
That is a starved, evap.  Its important to give it time to fill up if the system just clicked to it.  I am not looking at a tech sheet, or fast track, but you should be able to put the unit on freezer side only.  and see if evap then fills.

  Thanks.  Knowing this is helpful.   I took another photo today (not posted) after it had run all night, and there is more frost on it at the top, but none at the bottom.  I will look at the fridge side next opportunity, but we have food in there.  It has been working ok till now, but the temp was 55 this morning.  So, time to take the food out and get to work.  I've found no way to force the fridge to freezer mode only except by connecting a motor controller to the 3-way valve and operating it manually.  But then I am working blind.   Pressing "power freeze" on the panel doesn't do it.  I looked for jumpers on the main board, but there is nothing there.   Finally, I know some Samsungs can control "options settings" which would allow me to control the step valve, but for my fridge, there is no such option.

most units I have worked on set the Priority to freezer section first, may not be a ALWAYS
   This unit seems to rarely set the priority to freezer.  I've only seen it a few times.   But maybe the main board is damaged and also maybe it is trying to adapt to a fridge that won't cool as it expects, so the calculations it does are wrong.

The system appears starved due to a leak.  I related to you the Whirlpool Known problem they had.  Their Known problem was the refrigerator Evap had a leak. They had a service bulletin out on it.

You can have a leak any where as far as that goes.  May be detectable with Dye test, but you have to  put fittings on to get access to sealed system.
visual inspection of lines may show discoloration on the evaporators,  you may want to do a visual on the refrigerator evap.  Will often look black like tarnish.
    This video was helpful, if mainly for the links.     I'm going to buy a piercing valve like that one on Amazon (because they will deliver it quickly).   I'll look for leaks first, but it's not leaking so quickly that I am concerned yet.



This UNIT may also BE under a MANUFACTURE WARRANTY for sealed system.  How old is your unit?

don't Tap or go into the sealed system until you find out about this warranty or you'll void it.

My Whirlpool customer got it fixed for free.

  Nope.   5 year warranty.   Naturally it started to fail at 5 years and 3 months.  Of course I am pissed about this.

There are what we call small, very small factory leaks that you really cant find.  They may take three years to depleted the system.
    This is the most hopeful thing you've said, because I can work with this.  If it's really such a small leak that it takes 5 years to fail, I am happy to just refill it every 4-5 years.

   I'm going to do a good look-over of the fridge side to look for any leaks, just so I know where they are if they are visible.  There are many places on the outside around the compressor where I might suspect a leak - in fact EVERY brazed joint in the system looks like complete shit.   There are also a few places where the copper tubing is oxidized and green, and has dripped green onto the drip pan at the bottom.  But I think these are places where condensation has dripped onto the plumbing and it's just cosmetic.   I felt all the ugly brazed joints and they are all covered with some clear plastic (?) sealant, but none of them feel oily or leave any residue on my fingers.  So while they *look* like they might all leak, it seems likely none of them are leaking.  I figure if there is a slow refrigerant leak, there is going to be a little oil, right?   


You'll need to know how to add refrigerant  and do sealed system charge if you have no warranty
  Suggestions?  Videos?  I've re-filled my car in the past.  I have a manifold and  a pump if I need it.  I have a licensed friend if I need anything fancier than the automotive 134a, but he only works with R122 typically. 

Thanks for your help! 

Offline danube

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Re: Freezer in Samsung RSG257AARS side-by-side wont freeze
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2016, 09:28:15 AM »
   Thanks.  yes, that is the manual I have, and I also have the appropriate fast-track, though the link below didn't work.  But I have it. 

With regard to the manual, it's pretty bad.  Note that the "load status" on p 58 shows the various control outputs of the main board for my fridge.  But this is wrong since my fridge is displaying segments from 3 digits, not 2.  I've been using the ones on p 59 instead, and they seem to agree.   They put too many models into one manual.

But as soon as I put that piercing valve on the process tube, I am going "off script" so to speak.

Dan





This should be your manual
http://appliancejunk.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14844.0;attach=9041

or
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BzIiBNwRIV4NQjFNa3hnbGxieHM

fast track

https://drive.google.com/drive/search?q=fast%20track

Offline curjones

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Re: Freezer in Samsung RSG257AARS side-by-side wont freeze
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2016, 09:44:07 PM »
From what I read in regard to the  valve, is this.

if it fails on ALL , it means the valve is open to both evaps and in that case,  with a low system, you will notice the freezer evap starved, because its bigger in size.

if it fails the other way, the system will be off, valve to refrigerator evap is off, and NO cooling will be done on the refrigerator side.

This means the freezer side evap is never closed..  it is the Priority section

When you select the power freeze , this would be a force freeze in freezer side only.  All refrigerant will go to freezer side. Unless the valve is stuck in all. 

You have a small leak, and if you know how to Tap system Great.  Add only small amount, gauge reading after you add and wait 3-5 lbs, is all you need and  watch frost pattern.. Take your time, don't let frost get past the end of evaporator.

the only other  possible problem is evap is getting plugged , but you said frost pattern  has moved on down (thats good not plugged) then you've just had a small leak, over the years.
About the icons: The beer is tip link, if a tech saves ya some money buy em a 6 pack(diet coke in my case) . The small green square=personal message.

Offline danube

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Re: Freezer in Samsung RSG257AARS side-by-side wont freeze
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2016, 12:41:06 PM »
Ok, so yesterday I finally pulled the trigger and pierced the process tube.   I applied one of those bullet valves, then an old R122 manifold I have, then an R122 to R134 adaptor on the yellow line to an automotive can-piercing valve/hose assembly.   I wieghed the can/hose assembly before and after and checked that it did not leak before piercing the can so I could save what is in there for later use in my car.  I pulled a vaccum though the red line just to check for leaks in the manifold (found some bad o-rings) them pierced the can.  I vacuumed and flushed a couple times to get rid of air, then pierced the fridge.

The low side pressure was at -16 PSI (vacuum side) when I first opened it up.   Starved!  I slowly transferred refrigerant while watching freezer temp and topped it off at about 5 PSI.  But, then it cooled some more and I saw a vacuum again.  So I added a little more.  But after many hours, I noticed frost all the way to the compressor.  Ooops.  Too much.  So I vented a little gas and waited (yeah, I know, supposed to recover it - but it wasn't much) and I think it's finally stabilized at 4-5PSI, and just a little frost on the return tube coming out of the compartment.  I figure if there is a slow leak, that will correct itself over time and the frost will retreat into the box.   

BUT this morning, the freezer seemed cold, but my ice cream was mush in the bottom of the compartment (I presume it's coldest there, but maybe it's coldest at the top where the air vents out? - nevertheless it should be cold enough for ice cream.  That's my test).

  I did photograph the frost pattern before putting the evap covers back on and running over night and it looked uniform (must be - it's freezing out the box).   Fans are running.  About 218 grams of refrigerant when in.

   So, I am not sure what else to do.   It could still be a bad 3-way I suppose, but I can hear it turning (it's turned back and forth a couple times during a defrost cycle, I guess to equalize the pressures).   I have no real way to see if it's not plugged though.  I have not been able to feel a difference in temperature in the two output capillaries, for example).

  So, the ONE LAST THING I thought to do this morning is to seal the valve, pull my gauge, and put the rear access cover of the fridge back on.  Without the cover, the compressor fan blows air at the compressor, and then out everywhere.   There is half as much flow (or less) over the condenser coils.   With the cover on, fan air is ducted under the fridge and over the coils.  That's my last resort.  If this afternoon the freezer is cold and my ice cream is frozen, I think I've fixed it.  If not, then I think I've reached the end of the line, having spent about 10 days diagnosing and learning and $170 on a new main board, refrigerant and adapter.

  If I junk the fridge, I'll try to diagnose it a bit more in the garage. 

  Dan


 

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